Festival of Dangerous Ideas 2013: Hanna Rosin – The End of Men

Festival of Dangerous Ideas 2013: Hanna Rosin – The End of Men


Now, Hanna Rosin. It’s a treat to have her
with us today. She’s a writer, she’s an author,
she’s a mother. She lives in Washington, DC. And she’s one of those fabulous
creatures in the US who writes a series of provocative,
heavily investigated, well-reported magazine pieces that have consistently created a… I was going to say national,
but global debate. She’s also a founder of ‘Double X’, which is a site which is connected
to ‘Slate’ which is excellent. Written for the ‘Washington Post’, ‘New York’ magazine,
the ‘New Yorker’. Now, some of her recent pieces have been about the case
against breastfeeding, ‘A Boy’s Life, about a transgender
boy, and circumcision. In 2010, there was a story
titled ‘The End of Men’, which was really provoked by
a look of what was happening to men and women
during the recession, when finally there was a tipping
point in the American workforce, and the enormous implications of that
about what does it mean to be a man and what does it mean to be a woman? This is why it is dangerous, because she says, if we don’t have
any more fixed roles, the very rigid story we believed
about ourselves is no longer true. There is no natural order
of being a man and a woman. There is just the way things are. She says that she started
the book thinking that we were heading
to a more female age. It was going to be a more tender age. But she then abandoned that, because she says the assumption that
women would bring in this tenderness is just a story we tell ourselves to make the current massive upheavals
in gender roles seem tamer and more predictable
when they are anything but. More like revolutionary,
potentially exhilarating and sometimes frightening, but altogether inevitable. So the least we can do
is see them clearly. To help us see them clearly,
welcome Hanna Rosin. Hello. I like to especially thank the men
out there. I’m really pleased to see
so many men out there. It might give you some comfort
to know that, although I’ve been speaking about
this book for a few months, my husband does not hate me. Or actually, he only hates me
for the usual reasons. Like, I lose my keys
or the dishwasher or I go to Australia for a week and leave him alone
with our three children. (SOME CHUCKLING) To the women out there, I’d like to extend my condolences
to all of you women out there who are still barren, which is a word that we only see
in the Bible and in Australian political culture. (LAUGHTER, CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) Honestly, when I read that, “barren”,
I was like, I have not heard the word “barren”
used in normal dialogue in many, many years
outside of my synagogue. “Hanna was barren,” you know? Anyway, so I’d like to begin
by talking about some research that actually didn’t make it
into the book. One of the first things I did
when I started thinking about this was to interview couples
who are part of this phenomenon which we called the alpha wife,
or other words the breadwinner wife. The definition of such a wife
is very simple. This is a woman in a couple, can be
a married couple or just a couple, in which the wife makes more money
than the husband. No big deal,
but it actually is a big deal, because as early as the 1970s, this was an extraordinarily rare
phenomenon. It was like something like
4% of all couples. And now, it’s in the 45%
of all couples. That doesn’t even count
the single moms who are the sole breadwinners
of their family, which in America, at least, is the fastest-growing segment
of the population. You can imagine a range of reactions
that the couple might have to this. Julie was talking earlier about this
being confusing, exhilarating. So, I’m going to start with a guy. The reason I picked this couple…
Click, click. If a man were here,
he could fix this for me. (LAUGHTER) Anyway, so, the reason
I picked this couple is because it’s like the type of
situation that burns the most. Of the dozens of couples
I interviewed, they worked at the same firm,
they started at the same time, and then she just got promoted
more quickly than he did. And so after a few years, she’s making something like $8,000
more than he does. Not a huge amount of money, but it’s enough to make him feel bad,
you know? Or at least to make him
feel something. You can imagine he feels relieved. Maybe he’s happy
that she makes more money because they need the money,
or maybe he’s emasculated. He has a lot of different feelings. So I’m going to read you
what this actual guy said. “My wife and I both started at the
same IT company straight from college “and after a few years,
she overtook me professionally. “I sat around thinking maybe
she had better opportunities “or some great breaks, but
the reality is she worked harder, “she was more organised
and she made better use of her time. “There’s nothing to ascribe it to
except…she’s better than me.” (SCATTERED LAUGHTER) “The most painful moment
was when we are at a party “and one guy turned to us and said,
‘You guys are doing great. “‘Andrea, you’re a vice president
and Bill, “‘well, we don’t know what you are.’ “I laughed along with everyone else,
but eight years later, “I can still remember that moment
very clearly. “It was like, wow,
I’m the naked emperor here. “It’s not that I wish
she was less successful, “it’s that I wish
I was less unsuccessful. “It’s a guy thing. It sucks
to be beaten up by a woman.” This book started out in the
‘Atlantic’ magazine in the year 2010, and in the early days, I was thinking
mostly about economic changes, what’s the broad landscape
of the economy and how it’s changing
from a manufacturing economy, but as I did more research, I became
more interested in the nitty-gritty. How does this affect one woman
and one man facing each other
in a single marriage? What does this do
to human relationships, to decisions that say young women
make about who they’re going to marry or how we feel about
our husbands and wives? So now, before I go on
to the big picture, I want to read you what the woman
in this relationship thinks. I got such diverse reactions from
women, these kind of alpha wives, that I decided I want to give you
two different kinds of alpha wives, not the actual one
that’s presented here. So, here’s the resentful alpha wife. “Since earning my law degree in 1989, “I have felt hunted like a deer
by men as a desirable wife “because of my wage-earning
capability and good job. “I’ll never forget
my good friend’s husband “announcing at their
wedding reception, “‘Now that I’ve married a lawyer,
I won’t have to work anymore.’ “And he didn’t.” That’s the resentful one.
Now we’ll find the delighted one. “I’m the one who’s career-oriented. “I don’t want to come home
to someone I have to compete with. “‘Let’s see, who can climb
to the top of the ladder? “‘Who can make the most money?’
I was so sick of it.” “I wanted someone who didn’t want
to talk about their job all day “but who would rather go for a ride
on the beach. “His making less money
was a plus for me.” So as you can see, and this is true
of my book in general, it’s often read as a feminist, like,
“We crushed you guys,” but it’s actually not like that. It’s more sort of me describing the
sociological shifts which I notice, and I think the way you react to them entirely depends on
where you’re from. So, I don’t know how many of you
know America that well, but one of my chapters is reported
in Alabama in the deep south where the women are making more money
than the men because it’s a manufacturing town,
and this goes down really hard. A nice wife just lays the pay cheque
down on the table, doesn’t say a word and doesn’t make her husband
feel bad about it and goes about her business. And then I get other letters
from these stay-at-home dads, and, again, I don’t think you guys
will get this joke because you don’t know
the American landscape as well. But I recently got a letter
from a dad saying, “What are you guys talking about?
It’s so cool. “I’m a stay-at-home dad,
everyone applauds me.” Then I looked where he was from
and he was from Portland. So if any of you watch ‘Portlandia’, you know that that’s not like
the typical American situation. OK, let’s see if a woman
can operate this. No, she can’t. Go. Yes! OK, so, here’s when I started doing
the work, which is in 2009. You guys faced a similar situation. I just read today
in the ‘Sydney Morning Herald’ about the revival
of the housing industry. But when I start to do this research, we have terms like the great
man-cession and the great he-cession where you notice in the bottom quote, three-quarters of the job losses
since the beginning of 2008 fell on men. If you look at the charts of men’s
labour force participation and women’s labour force
participation, they run in exactly opposite ways, so that men’s labour force
participation is now the lowest
that it’s ever been ever in history. So, in 1950, say, one in 20 men
were not in the labour force. Now it’s one in five men in the US. And if you look over the century,
you see men’s income slowly declining and women’s income slowly rising
even though they haven’t matched. There still is a wage gap. I’m sure some angry person is going
to ask me about the wage gap and I will be happy to talk about it,
but not yet. Not yet. Not yet.
I’m on the stage now, damn it! I get to control the conversation. OK, so that was happening with men. What’s happening with women? This is all 2009. So, the most shocking thing
that happened in 2009 was that women became
the majority of the workforce. This is, like, incredibly
huge shift in world history. Now, they sort of hover around
48%, sometimes 50%. When I was a child in the ’80s
watching TV, the working woman was such
a cool, interesting phenomenon that there was, like, ten sitcoms
devoted to her existence. “Whoa, she has a briefcase!
That’s so cool!” “Wow, she’s wearing a suit.” And now here we are,
not that long later, and women are the majority
of the workforce. That in it of itself
is a huge transformation. Then there’s these other things. Wives begin to take over
as top family earners. That’s the alpha wives
I was telling you about. The bottom statistic, which will become relevant
a little later in my speech, somebody did a broad census analysis
of the entire US. They divided it into
2,000 major regions, and they found that in 1,997
of those regions, young, childless women
earn more than young childless men. Now, of course,
they’re young and childless, so they don’t know anything yet. They haven’t dealt with children
or the glass ceiling. Nonetheless, this is really,
really significant. The moment that men and women
are viewing each other, making decision about who to marry,
just making these big life choices, women have a median income
that’s higher than men. Why is this happening? We have…the big, big broad trend
is the end of manufacturing, and shifting to a service
and information economy and a technology-driven economy. In the old economy,
men had a natural advantage, just, like, an upper body strength
advantage, which they have entirely lost. So there’s no natural reason now
why men have won over women. Another thing that happens is what
I call the “travelling sisterhood”, which means that as more women
enter the workforce at the top as doctors, as lawyers,
as physicians – I have a chapter about physicians and how that profession
has entirely changed – what happens is, they open up jobs,
low-paying jobs at the bottom, for the kinds of things
that wives used to do for free, meaning childcare, elder care,
food preparation, service. So it becomes this cycle where
you have these high-earning women letting in low-earning women and it
goes around and around and around. The most important one, which is true basically
in every country in the world… It’s certainly true here. Here it’s true to the exact extent
that it is in the US, which is education. We live in a world in which a college degree
is required to do almost anything. For every three degrees
that women earn, men earn two. Men have not changed their degree
earning since the ’70s, while women have continued
to earn more and more degrees. I’m not saying it’s great that you need a college degree
to do everything. It’s just a fact
of the modern economy. So here is my… We are going to listen to
the world’s expert explain why women earn more degrees
than men. OK, play the video, please. Girls are obviously smarter. They have much larger vocabulary. -No!
-They learn much faster. -Let ’em go.
-They are more controlled. On the board today, for losing
recess, tomorrow, only boys. And why is that? They were just
not listening to the class while the girls sat there very nicely
and did their work. (LAUGHTER) That is my daughter. She is not even remotely
that cute anymore, because she is now a pre-teen, and so there’s a large,
large difference, for all of you who have children
between 10 and 12. If she knew I was still showing
this video, she would kill me. So don’t anyone tell here
that she’s still part of my talk. She’s also completely wrong. It’s not that girls
are smarter than boys. What she says at the end,
I think, is slightly more relevant. There is what has been called a “boy
crisis” in the US and in England and in most
English-speaking countries. It begins when kids are very young. There’s a certain degree
of discipline required in schools which, developmentally, it’s difficult for boys
to live up to that. There’s a large degree of testing
and expectation that starts when boys are very young. And so the boys I interview
for my book, basically, as I summarise it,
they have this feeling that school is rigged against them, that the system is somehow
not made for them. Which is the opposite. I think girls were always better
at school than boys, but boys never had the feeling that
the system was rigged against them. They figured, “OK, so what
if the boys get in trouble? “We all understand they’re going to
take over the world anyway.” But since that assumption
is not necessarily true anymore, the boys really do suffer. This whole thesis came home to me when I was visiting a college
in Kansas City, totally working-class state college. I was not looking for Bryn Mawr,
like, a liberal elite college where all the feminists were. That’s not where I was going.
Totally mainstream state college. In fact, I went even one more. I did not go to
the women’s study centre, but I went to find sorority girls. I purposely looked up –
“Do you guys have sororities here?” You know. Like cheerleaders.
However you want. Like, you know, girlie girls. I purposely went to find
to find girlie girls so people wouldn’t accuse me of just
going to the feminist studies class. When I was in college, the natural
assumption of me and my friends was this kind of happy,
feministic quality. It was, like, “I’ll work
and my husband will work.” You know? “I’ll raise the kids
and he’ll raise the kids.” I’m not saying it worked out
that way, I’m just saying that was
the general feminist assumption. Now, when I went to this college, they basically talked about the boys
that they were dating, or their fiances,
like they were children. “I have to drag him
to the job office, “and he’s changed his major
16 different times.” “What am I going to do with him?” “When I become a doctor, “he’ll have to stay home
and take care of the kids.” It was a whole different way
of thinking about boys. And here is a quote
from one of the girls – sorority girl,
cheerleader girl – about boys. Come on. Hanna. “Men are the new ball and chain.”
I did not make that up. That’s a sorority girl said that. (LAUGHTER) OK, guys, I’m going to get a little
bit meaner before I get nicer, but it will come around. It will come around, I promise,
it will come around. For a long time,
this was the image of… -Come on, Hanna. No, go back.
-(LAUGHTER) This was the image
of American manhood – now you know the joke –
which dominated. Tough, rugged,
in charge of the pioneer. Australians have a version of this.
He might as well be Australian. And then he was replaced by
this much less impressive specimen, which is a parody
of American manhood, because basically, the “rugged man”
exists in quotation marks. It’s just a hard thing to take
earnest and seriously these days. It’s very funny. The first-born son, for example, is so deeply ingrained
in our consciousness that I decided to explore it. And one thing I did was go to
fertility clinics and ask what… Because fertility clinics
that are doing new, new methods have to report to our central agency
what people are asking for. And so I asked them,
“Do people ask for boys and girls?” It turned out that 75% of couples
were requesting girls, which is really, really amazing. My favourite statistic in my
whole book comes from South Korea, which is insanely patriarchal,
remains insanely patriarchal, and yet because women
have risen so quickly in universities and in industries, they have completely reversed the
preference for the first-born son. They keep very good statistics on
this and you’ll find them in my book. They’ve been doing it
year after year. In the last two years,
the majority of South Korean couples say they would rather have
a girl than a boy. What’s driving this?
What’s the essential difference? If my daughter is wrong
that girls are smarter than boys, then what, actually, is going on? So, I thought about this
for a long time, and the best I could come up with is a concept I called
Plastic Woman and Cardboard Man. What do I mean by that? Except
that women are superheroes and… No. That’s not what I mean. The quality the economists
tend to look for is something they call adaptability. So the thing that’s needed basically
to succeed in an economy like this, of part-time workers,
where things are always shifting, where there’s no loyalty to industry,
is essentially an ability to hustle. So if you know
that the industry’s shifting and the new kinds of things
are health care jobs, you have to be willing to get
the skills and education you need to get those health care jobs. And that’s what I think is driving
women to succeed in this economy. And a lot of this is because women
have been the underdogs, because I think when you’re
the underdog for a long time, you naturally learn to hustle. It’s something like what in business
they call disruptive technology, when you take the underdog
or something that’s behind and that underdog is always hustling
and trying to fit in the cracks. And suddenly, the qualities
that they show in abundance become the qualities
that are the most desired. So maybe we’re like the Apple
computers of humanity, women are. OK, I can’t do this
as well as Dan Savage, but we are going to talk about sex
a little bit. So, in the US, we talk a lot
about the hook-up culture. And I think we’re a little more
prudish than you are, in general. So there’s this overwhelming sense, probably less sexist,
but probably more prudish. That would be my short summary of it. But I think that… Well, that barren thing,
that really… (LAUGHTER) Nobody would ever get away
with that thing, calling some woman politician
“barren”. Anyway, so, but we’re prudes. So, anyway, one of the things
we talk about a lot in the US is the hook-up culture. And this idea
that the hook-up culture, meaning a culture where you
no longer ask somebody on a date but where people are just having
some kind of physical intimacy without any kind of commitment or certainly any kind
of long-term commitment. There’s a lot of hand-wringing
going on about this in the US. And the reason
people are upset about it is because they assume
it’s terrible for women. That this is a system
created by men for men so that they can get lucky
whenever they want to get lucky and the women sit
in their dorm rooms and cry. So that’s the image. That’s what we think is going on
with the hook-up culture. It didn’t strike me as quite right. And I read all the books there were
to read about the hook-up culture, and basically they go and interview
woman after woman. and the women on the college campuses
do say, “This sucks.” You know? “The guys won’t commit.
This is really unpleasant.” You do get that blow-back. And then I found the one fabulous
long-term, in-depth study about the hook-up culture. To women out there in the audience
my age, you will now understand
the sacrifices one has to make as an academic. So these women,
there were two of them, they lived in a party dorm at
Midwestern university for four years. So like that Drew Barrymore movie,
you know, where she goes back. She’s, like, maybe 24
when she goes back to college. These women were 42.
So that’s embarrassing. So they lived in this college dorm
for four years, and yes, they got all that stuff
that every other hook-up book gets. Which is, “Yeah, the guys
don’t want to commit.” But what they realised after
four years is that, effectively, the women were avoiding
getting committed to. Because now you can remember
that statistic I told you about how women’s median incomes
are higher than men’s. At that age, women
are at their most ambitious, and what they care about is getting
ahead in life, finding a good job. The first age of marriage
in Australia is 30, which is phenomenally high. So you guys must know
what I’m talking about. People get married later and later, and it’s because they want to set
themselves up well in life. So the girls would tell
the researchers, “Yeah, this guy is asking me out,
but being that serious with someone “would be the equivalent
of a four-credit class, “and I just have too many classes
right now, so I can’t handle it.” They would talk in these
really utilitarian ways. It is the death of young love, but still, they would talk
in these various opportunistic ways about the cost of a relationship
and what it would cost them. And how much they didn’t want to
get into it. So, I actually wrote this… This chapter of my book,
I wrote up in the ‘Atlantic’ magazine and got tons of letters
from young women. I really would like
to read one of them, because what they said to me, what
they effectively transmitted to me, was, “Hanna, you only
got it half right. “You’re right
that we don’t really want to be “in long-term committed
relationships, but you know what? “We don’t really like
one-night stands either. “Both of these things are true. “So I’m going to define to you
these kinds of relationships “which your 40-year-old self can’t
imagine, but which are going on now.” So here’s what she wrote. “We want a person to hook up with,
but also to hang out with. “But none of the stifling constraints
and stodgy strictures “of the old school
boyfriend-girlfriend commitment. “We don’t want to be compelled
by expectations “to do each other’s laundry
or bring each other chicken soup “when one of us is sick. “We don’t even want to see
each other every day “and watch a sappy movie
on a Friday night and snuggle.” Here she is describing my whole life,
but that doesn’t matter. (LAUGHTER) I’m a big person.
I can get over that. “Yes, some of us want that, but not
every night and not every weekend. “We certainly don’t want these
relationships to be entered into “with an expectation of long term, “or get in the way of other
important things in our lives. “We, both men and women,
are putting ourselves first. “Some might call it selfish. We call
it smart and independent and secure.” So that, to me, was a whole new view of what, in the age
of the rise of women, a new way of understanding
women’s sexuality. Of not understanding them
entirely as victims in this kind of culture
that’s emerging, but as people who are smart
and secure enough to use it to get what they want and to dip in and out of it
when they need to, but not always to be victims. OK, that’s the young women. Now, let’s move on to marriage. So, the rise of women is having
an incredibly significant effect on marriage patterns, not just in the US,
but all over the world. But it’s doing that
in not just different ways, depending on social class,
but completely opposite ways. In the elite educated marriages –
classes, I mean – have invented a concept
which I call, personally, the Seesaw Marriage. What’s the Seesaw Marriage? If we live in a world of alpha wives where it is perfectly possible
for the woman to be the main breadwinner
of the family and that’s not such
a shocking phenomenon anymore, Seesaw Marriage captures the idea that men and women can take turns
carrying the family or earning the most money. And so, for example,
Barack and Michelle Obama have a classic Seesaw Marriage. When he was in law school
and working in public service, Michelle Obama
was a top health care executive, and she was making much more money
than he was and carrying the family financially. Then of course
he becomes the President and she’s seen as his supportive
person because she’s the First Lady. But then Barack Obama
always gives speeches and says, “OK, when I’m done,
it’s Michelle’s turn again.” It’s that idea that nobody’s
locked into the position. Nobody’s locked at home.
Nobody’s locked at work. If you remember, if any of you
read ‘The Feminine Mystique’ or remember the general ethos
of the early ’60s, the problem then was that women felt like they were
locked at home making the bedsheets. She didn’t call them bedsheets,
she called them slip covers. Anyway, I didn’t really know, I had
to look up what a slip cover was so far am I from that era. I was like, “Is that a pillowcase
or is a slip cover…?” Anyway, the idea was that women
were locked at home, and you got the same feeling
from the men in novels like ‘Revolutionary Road’, where the men felt, there were these
organisation men trapped at work and they just had to earn and earn
and earn and earn. And there was even
this concept around in 1962 that if you weren’t married
and earning by a certain age, which back then was like 24,
then you must be a homosexual. True. That was true
in the psychology of the early ’60s. So the Seesaw Marriage
wipes away that idea. Nobody feels trapped. And in fact, what’s happened
is, for elite classes – by that, I mean people with
a full-time college degree – have the lowest divorce rates
they’ve had in decades, the highest rates
of marriage happiness. These are long-term surveys –
how happy are you in your marriage? – the highest rates of happiness and a miniscule chance
of being single parents. It’s just lower than it’s ever been. If you look at
everyone else’s marriages, meaning people
without a college degree, it’s the exact opposite picture. You basically have people… Not just divorce rates, which are exactly as high as they
were in the 1970 divorce revolution, but basically nobody getting married. I don’t know where Australia
falls in this. I figured this out for Europe. Europeans, when they don’t
get married, it’s not actually that significant, because a lot of times
people live together for long term even though they don’t get married. But Americans are marriage-obsessed. So when Americans are not getting
married, it actually means something. So, people are having children, not marrying the man
they’re having children with, and it’s the ball-and-chain problem. When I was reporting the number… I did a lot of my reporting in working-class
and lower-middle-class communities, because that’s just like,
as far as I’m concerned, that’s a world turned upside down
in terms of gender roles. In the upper classes,
it’s slightly more complicated, but if you go on the vast 70%
of middle and working class, it’s like you’re living
in a different country in terms of what men do
and what women do. The number of times
I had this conversation – “How come you’re not…” I open my book
with an anecdote like this. “How come you’re not married
to the father of your child?” It’s really nice to be a reporter because you get to ask
these asshole, nosy questions. It’s like, “What business
is it of yours, lady?” Anyway, I do ask these questions. And the answer that comes back to me
more than any other answer is, “Because he’d be
just another mouth to feed.” Again, we’re back to this idea of women thinking of the men
in their lives as yet another child
that they have to take care of. Is this the men’s faults? No.
The economy has fallen apart. A lot of men aren’t working, and we haven’t figured out
how to put families together who are not officially fathers. So where are we now? This is a discussion that
we’re going to have more deeply in a panel later, but I do
want to talk a little bit about it. Women are now TV anchors, you had
a prime minister who was a woman, bank presidents, corporate CEOs,
scatologically savvy comedians. Women do all sorts of things. Nonetheless,
and before I get to that, we also are transforming our notion of what it means to be a good leader,
which is also important. If you read leadership books
from the ’60s and ’70s, they basically described a good
leader like a battle commander, someone who takes a lot of risks,
someone who issues orders. Now, we don’t talk that way anymore. When we talk about a good leader… The business school people
wouldn’t put it this way, but we do incorporate a lot of
traditionally feminist principles. You have to motivate your team
and you have to be like a coach and you have to inspire them
to work together and you have to listen
to what people are saying. Our idea of what makes a good leader
has transformed in such a way that it is no longer unfriendly
to women. That said, now we come to
the “barren” question. We as a culture
and as a global culture are still very uncomfortable with the idea of dominant,
aggressive, female power. We are in this transition period where it doesn’t really sit well
with us. How do I know this?
Because it’s been studied endlessly. So, in the late ’90s
and the early 2000s, I don’t know if these books
made it here, but there were a series of books called ‘Nice Girls Don’t Get
the Corner Office’. It basically was like
an earlier version of Sheryl Sandberg’s ‘Lean In’. It was basically, like, you have to
push, you have to be more aggressive. Here, I’ll read you
one of the sentences from them. “If you worry about offending others
and back down too easily “and otherwise insist on workplace
displays of girlish behaviour – “‘All of you who bake cookies
in the office,’ chides Lois Frankel – “then you are sabotaging
your career.” So her message was pretty clear. This was the era right after the era
of the power women. We’re telling people
that they have to go out there and push and ask for a raise. When women started doing this,
really bad things started to happen, because…like people
calling them “barren”. Because as it turns out, the culture is not ready to accept
women behaving in this way. There was a series of studies
done at Harvard and NYU, the Andrea/James studies. And they were done
in a million different ways, and every single result
is depressing. So you take a resume,
you give one resume – they’re exactly the same,
you describe the same job history – except one is called Andrea
and one is called James. Or you do two videos
of people asking for a raise in the exact same language with the
same facial expression, the same age. One person is called Andrea,
one person is called James. The questions the researchers
asked is, two questions. Would you give the person a raise? And do you want to work
with this person? Does this person seem like
a nice person? In almost every single case, the man
got the raise, the woman didn’t. The man was, like, the coolest guy
ever who you want to play golf with and have a beer with
and the woman is a…bitch. That’s what happened every time. And so this is really depressing. It turns out that women can’t just
go out there and stop baking cookies and bust balls and it’s
all going to work out OK. It doesn’t work out OK. Luckily, right before
I publish my book, the same researchers who did
all these Andrea/James studies went back at the question and they
said, “So, what are we going to do?” We live in this weird era where women are rising faster
and faster in management positions, where we really want them
to get ahead, and yet when they behave
in certain ways, they get penalised. And so they workshopped
certain scripts, and I’m going to read you guys
these scripts and you’re going to vote on which one
you think is the good script. The idea here is, we are a woman, we are a young woman, and this
young woman is asking for a raise. And these researchers
ran three different scripts about how she could ask for a raise, and you guys are going to vote
on which one works. I’ll see how smart you are, and then I’ll explain
why it’s the right answer. OK, let’s go. Number one. “I think I should be paid
at the top of that range, “and I would also like to be eligible
for an end-of-the-year bonus.” Number one. Number two. “I hope it’s OK
to ask you about this. “I’d feel terrible
if I offended you in doing so.” Number three. “I don’t know how typical it is for
people at my level to negotiate…” “..but I’m hopeful that you’ll see
my skill at negotiating “as something important
I bring to the job.” OK, so number one is, “I think I should be paid
at the top of the range.” Two is, “I hope it’s OK
to ask you about this.” Three is,
“I don’t know how typical it is “for people at my level
to negotiate.” Who votes for number one? “I think I should be paid
at the top of the range.” OK, we have a few.
That’s like 20% of you guys. Who votes for – “I hope it’s OK
to ask you about this”? 10%. Who votes for – “I don’t know how
typical it is for people at my age?” You’re so smart. Australians are so smart! If we could all be like Australians. OK, now I’m going to explain
why that’s the right answer. I’ve since interviewed
many, many women, including Sheryl Sandberg, who said this is precisely,
exactly what she does when she asked for a raise. Here’s why it works. Because you have to think about this
as, there are stereotypes, and you get penalised
for violating those stereotypes. So if the stereotype for women
is they have to be helpful, think about it this way. Imagine you’re at a school,
and a woman comes to the school and she barges in to the
principal’s office and she says, “My kid is in the wrong class,
and you have to switch my kid “and put them in the right class “because you’re not doing right
by my kid.” That does not violate, even though she’s being
totally aggressive and dominant, that does not violate any of our
expectations for how women behave. Why? Because she’s being aggressive
on behalf of somebody else. So the stereotype gets triggered… I mean, the discomfort,
which I called the twitch, gets triggered,
by men and women by the way, women are equally uncomfortable when women are advocating
on behalf entirely of themselves. But if women say,
“Look, you want to hire me “to negotiate for your company. “I’m going to show you
how good I am at that “by starting by negotiating
for myself.” So, the deal is…
And this is annoying. The researchers said,
“We were so annoyed “at how anti-feminist
our message ended up being.” Nonetheless, this is what they found. So long as you say that what you want also aligns with the needs
of the company, you’re OK. So do what you will with that. I’m not saying it’s cool or feminist,
it’s totally not. I’m just saying
this is what they found. So I’ll give you another example. Somebody came to these researchers because they also do
consulting advice and said, “I am a manager,
and a guy working for me, “one of my underlings, “I just discovered,
makes more money than I do. “And this is infuriating. “I just want to kill them. “How dare they pay someone
who works for me “more money than I get paid? “I’m just going to go in there
and just rip them a new one “and tell them they’re
a bunch of sexist bastards.” Which your prime minister did
so beautifully that I just… I want to just own that strategy
for a minute, even though it’s not what I’m about
to say is the right strategy, because she was so good. OK, so she says…
So the advice they gave them… But this is a corporate setting, it’s a little bit different
than a political setting. So she says, “If you go in there
and rip them a new one, “all you’re doing is reinforcing
their ideas about you “that you’re a victim and you
don’t know how to handle yourself. “In fact, what you need to do
is say this…” “I think that you really
don’t want to be running a company “where underlings make more money
than the people they work for, “because that’s really destabilising “and could cause a lot of problems
for your company.” -(LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE)
-Whoo! Pretty good.
That’s pretty good, right? So you’re not going in there
screaming and yelling. Who knows if your boss is a sexist?
You’re just telling it like it is. So that’s the questions we have
to deal with after the end of men. So where do we want to go?
I’m going to skip some of these. That’s the Little Bit of Sugar.
Sorry. Where do we want to go
after the end of men? I certainly do not want men
to disappear and go away because I like them. I have a husband. I have two sons,
I have a brother, a dad, all these people I love very much. So what we want to do is really
look closely at these questions that we started out with. How much can we handle
these changes in society? How much can we open our minds
and get used to the idea that this is coming
and we should accept it and be less freaked out by it? So, one thing is,
we have to make a situation where people pay less of a price
for crossing gender lines. If you take a broad menu
of character traits, and some of them are
traditionally masculine – dominant, aggressive, reckless – some of them are traditionally
feminine – nurturing, helpful – that if you happen to be a woman who
wants to be aggressive and dominant, we want to move a place where you
don’t have to hide that as much. And if you happen to be a guy
who’s nurturing, wants to stay home with your kids,
whatever, we want to move towards a place where you don’t pay
such a high penalty for that. One thing I’ve noticed
since I’ve written this book is that pop culture has helped us
a lot with this. There’s Katniss.
Come back, Katniss, come back. Come back. Katniss? There. OK. Did you all read
‘The Hunger Games’? Yes? Because you should have
read it already, so if I’m going to spoil this
for you, it’s too bad, because they’ve been out a long time. So here’s Katniss Everdeen. She’s the heroine of the story. She is a traditional male hero. She is the provider for her family.
She is the protector. She is the aggressor,
the reluctant killer. She is really a classic male hero. She’s also deeply unpleasant.
She doesn’t want to please anybody. She’s not nice to be around
and nobody likes her. All of her characteristics are
traditionally male characteristics. (LAUGHTER) My God, I never even realised how
obnoxious that was until you laughed. It says a lot about me. Anyway, the guy she ends up with…
And here’s the spoiler, Peeta. At the end of the book,
she ends up with Peeta. Peeta, who’s her boyfriend,
he is the nurturer, he’s the baker, he’s the romantic, he’s the one who smooths
things over, he waves. He plays sort of a classic
feminine role in their relationship. And the really cool thing
about Katniss and Peeta is that I notice all the stuff,
like I’m telling you about it, isn’t it cool, isn’t it interesting? But my daughter who’s now 12
and has read all these books, it’s not like she comes to me
and says, “Ooh, Mom, they’re really scrambling
up the gender roles “and it’s so interesting.” She doesn’t even notice. To her, it’s, like, “Sure, whatever.” Katniss has a bow and arrow.
What’s the big deal? It doesn’t even occur to her
that there would be something odd. I think that’s because we’ve had
a few years of pop culture, like Angelina Jolie in ‘Salt’. We’ve had a lot of traditionally male
roles being given to women. That role was actually written
for a man in ‘Salt’, and then given to Angelina Jolie. We’ve had several situations
like that. Girls have played aggressive soccer
for many, many years. So it’s not such a foreign concept
to her. So maybe she won’t have to follow
that stupid script when she’s older. By the way, I make my daughter,
poor thing, when she gets babysitting jobs
and house-sitting jobs, I make her negotiate for more money,
even it’s from $10 to $11, merely so those words won’t seem foreign and unfeminine
coming out of her mouth. (LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE) This is for the older ladies
in the crowd, just so you don’t think it’s only
young women who get to carry guns. Everyone of every age can kick ass. What about the men? How much can we accept? This one is actually harder,
because the truth is that, when I was talking about
Plastic Woman, over the course of a century, women have changed
their bearing and role in the public sphere dramatically
just about every decade. And every time it happens,
there’s a TV show to talk about it, like ‘Murphy Brown’
and then ‘Sex and the City’. OK, cool, we can all talk
about sex now. Then you have ‘Girls’. Ooh, we can talk about sex
in incredibly lewd and vulgar ways. It’s, like, women change
and change and change and change, and men don’t change all that much. And so one of the things
I did for my research is look at 50 years of sitcom history. And what you find is that from
the origins of the American sitcom, if you put a man in a domestic
situation, he’s a total moron. So, that’s like Homer Simpson, right? He just, like, blows up the toaster and gives his children
really stupid advice. It’s a classic American archetype
of the sitcom. Why do you think we do this? We do this because… It’s not like
pop culture has a political agenda, it just channels the subconscious. And what that message is telling us is that that’s not the natural place
for men. If we’re going to put men at home,
they damn well better be idiots, just so you all understand
they don’t belong there. Now, lately, and I mean lately
since I wrote this book, this has changed dramatically. So we have got a series of sitcoms – this is just one of them
called ‘Up All Night’ – where men are in domestic situations. They’re home
taking care of their kids. There’s, like, seven of these
TV shows in the latest TV season. Guys with kids, men with kids,
bachelors with kids. It’s, like, the new cool thing
in television. And in this case,
he’s a stay-at-home dad. And I actually had
a very early screener of this because it was based on
my ‘End of Men’ story. The idea came from
my ‘End of Men’ story. And in the original scripts, they
had him be a Homer Simpson moron. Like, the first scene
was him watching a hockey game or playing a video game
or something like that, and the baby
is slowly tipping off the couch, and the diaper is full of pee
and he’s not even noticing, which is like
the classic sitcom situation. But over time because people have
been talking about gender roles, they’ve gotten more confident
with this character. So he now embodies
all the parental wisdom, and not only that,
but he remains sexy to his wife. He has not paid a price
of emasculation in order to be a decent father
and be at home. And so that is what I think is brand-new and really exciting
in American television. And it’s important,
because you’ll see in my book, there’s lots of studies about how,
particularly for working-class men, accepting the role, even if you
are doing all the father work, just accepting it as part of your
identity is difficult for some men. It’s just seen as violating
some masculine norm. And so when you have mainstream TV
doing that over and over again, it really helps to normalise
these changes. So, OK, back to what is it that I
want to happen after the end of men? Some biologists wrote a story
which really was a bummer for me because he actually thinks that
we should just harvest men’s sperm because they cause so much damage. It’s like the Steven Pinker idea of, like, how women are peaceful
and lovely, which I don’t believe. So all we need is women,
and we harvest the men’s sperm and then just pack them up
in cages and… Anyway, it has made me
really look like an asshole. It’s, like, “Hanna Rosin
and that guy just…” But actually that’s not what I want
at all. I’m not with that guy. What I actually want
is what I said earlier. If I think about my own son…
I have two sons and a daughter. And my daughter,
I already told you about her. I want her to live in a world where
it’s OK for her to ask for a raise in any way that happens
to suit her personality. If she’s an apologetic type, great, that shouldn’t mean
she’s really girlie. If she’s a total aggressive type,
that’s fine too. It shouldn’t be
that she has to conform to some specific notion of how to be. And for men, it’s the same thing,
and even more difficult. So I’ve got a son, for example,
one of my sons, the older… I don’t think my younger one
was in the video, but that cute, curly-haired one. He is an out-of-the-box kid. Hard to
imagine him having a nine-to-five. He lives on his own planet. He loves to write computer programs
and everything. It’s really hard for me
to imagine him working Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
Thursday, Friday at a long job. I imagine that when he grows up, he’ll be in a situation where
he might take Tuesdays off or wander off to the park on
a Tuesday and do his little project. And maybe when he has kids,
he’ll take every Tuesday off ’cause he’d rather hang out
at the playground with his kid than do his real job. And what my real aim is, is that somebody should pass
little Jacob, big Jacob then, on the playground, and turn their head and see him there
on Tuesday afternoon, they should not have the thought,
“Poor guy doesn’t have a job.” “What’s wrong with that guy?” “That guy’s wife must be suffering.” They should have no thoughts
at all about it. They should just pass the playground
on that Tuesday afternoon and go about their business. That’s where I would like to get to
after the end of men. Thank you, that’s all I got. So I talked a little long, but
we still have time for questions. JULIA: Not at all. OK, we’re going to take
some questions now. If you want to come down
to the microphones. Remember to keep them concise,
only want questions, not so much statements. And while we’re waiting for people
to come down, I’ll kick off with a quick question. Obviously, you are very aware of
what’s just happened in this country. You spoke about Julia Gillard being called…”deliberately
barren” by the way. -Deliberately!
-It wasn’t an accident. It would be sad
if she were accidentally barren. That’s another category entirely. But it’s horrifying
if she’s deliberately barren. We have a male prime minister,
which is reverting to normal. We have a cabinet
with only one woman in it. We’re not seeing the end of men
at an institutional… ..at any of these powerful,
political institutions globally except for some
Scandinavian countries. Which we should all move to, yeah. That’s right, for so many reasons. Although Australia came out ahead. There’s a famous… What’s it called? It’s called the Third Billion Index
about women, and Australia came out ahead of the
Scandinavian countries interestingly. -There we go.
-Yeah. But how do you reconcile this, and how much of your research shows
up differences between classes? So, in the working class, as I said,
it feels like an upside-down world. Even though that’s counter-intuitive, because you would think they would
think they’d be more conservative, but just the way life is lived, it feels very, very different
than how it used to be. It doesn’t radically surprise me
that the top is not all female, only because what I’m describing
is a 40-year-long transformation, it’s some wickedly
fast transformation. But men have been at this
for, like, 40,000 years. So it’s not
that things turn overnight. In your situation, and there’s
a similar situation in Germany, where I think somebody
in the Social Democratic Party was with a reporter, and told her that he would
like to see her in a dirndl, which is a word like “barren”,
like, who uses the word “dirndl”? But anyway… And a similar thing happened, which
is that she then wrote a story… There is some hope for me
in the fact that Julia Jillard… Gillard. Gillard. I always say that wrong.
Gillard. And I shouldn’t call her Julia
because that actually is sexist, the way everyone calls her Julia. ..is able to sort of then
give this speech which makes it clear to everyone
that the world as it exists and the way that people
like Abbott think – which is that women
are not maybe suited for leadership – is like a dinosaur kind of thinking. So to me, at least, even if
we don’t have the numbers, which we don’t have yet,
we at least have outlets where we can keep saying,
“This is dinosaur thinking. “This is just not going to last.
Like, it’s not going to last.” It’s inevitable, so just accept it. OK. Alright.
We have a question down here. Hi. -Hi, Hanna.
-Hi. Thank you very much
for your speech today. Sure. I know you’ve mentioned the glass
ceiling once in your presentation, and that you’ve just said there with women
getting into positions of power is going to take
a couple of generations. What do you think
about the countervailing force that sometimes is noticed in especially high-corporate
kind of jobs or in politics where you see women
who do break the glass ceiling and then let the shards of glass
fall upon the women below? You mean they’re not supportive
for women? -Yes.
-Yeah. So this is actually, like,
there are numbers to this phenomenon, which is that women tend to be
competitive with other women when they’re in token mode. So if you have the sense that there’s
only one or two places for a woman, you see other women
as your direct competition. And the way to get out of token mode
is to reach something like a third. They show that… Sociologists have done
institutional studies, and then once you reach
the point of a third, then the existence of women
becomes normalised. They don’t any longer
see each other as a threat. By the way, I will add that I don’t see this
as a steady forward march of history. There are some industries,
for example, finance industry, which are really, really difficult
for women to break into. But they’re difficult to break into both because
they’re run by macho dudes who are all about
who makes the most money. If you take the top 0.01%, the
super-uber-rich, they are all men. But there’s also the problem
that survey after survey shows that women don’t care as much
about making money, that when you ask women
what they want out of jobs, it’s always job satisfaction,
meaning, stuff like that. So then you’re back to
the Sheryl Sandberg questions, which is,
maybe we just have to accept that there are certain industries
and certain ways of gaining power that are never going to be
as interesting to women as they are to men. OK. Alright. Yep. Thanks. MAN: Yeah. Enjoyed your talk,
thank you very much for that. HANNA: Thank you. MAN: I have an alpha wife,
and I’m pretty cool with that. My question comes to… HANNA: You have an alpha wife
and you’re OK with that? -Yeah.
-Alright. -I learned that term today.
-Yes. My question relates to
my 11-year-old daughter, who, like every father, I assume
thinks is destined for great things. As a father, though, in this age,
what advice do you have for me? What behaviour should my wife
and I be modelling for her so that she can go out
and achieve everything she can? The thing, if you have an alpha wife
already modelling, kind of, you know, there’s no assumptions
in your household that you’re the main breadwinner. If there’s no assumptions, you’re
already starting out on a good foot. What I’ve thought about doing
with my daughter is just making her aware, right? So I start by, there’s no assumption
that my husband is the breadwinner or I’m the breadwinner or I’m always
the one taking care of the kids. That’s just obvious in the way
we live our day-to-day life that we both, you know, we naturally
gravitate to certain things, but we’re both in charge of the
outside world and the domestic world. But then I also want her to have
a realistic sense of things, right? So you always read these stories
of women who were, like, 43, and they worked so hard
on their career and then it’s difficult
to have children or something. I just want to explain to her,
we’re in this transition period. You will still be penalised
for behaving in certain ways. Nonetheless, I don’t want you
to think it’s girlish to ask for a raise. Maybe this is confusing
as information, but I want her to be very conscious
of the world as it is today, that it’s a transition point
to a world that will be very easy for her,
but that we’re not there yet. And she can negotiate her pocket
money, no, the babysitting money. -Yes, the babysitting money.
-Which is great advice, actually. I made her do it with someone
who’s, like, I don’t know, you guys don’t know… I’m not going to say this on stage. Doesn’t she start negotiating
with you? -Yeah, good. She should.
-Great. Women just can’t get the words
out of their mouth. The amount of money women lose because they don’t negotiate
their first salary, another thing that’s well studied,
it’s a vast difference. It’s, like, 59% of men… I don’t know if I’m getting
these numbers right, but it’s something like
6% of women and 59% of men do not ask for more money
because women are just grateful that they got their first job,
and men always ask for a raise, and then that carries on
over a lifetime. You know that if you, starting out at
a certain level for your first job, that’s going to carry on with you
for your second, third, fourth job. -Go ahead, sorry.
-WOMAN: Hi. Thanks for the talk. You’ve discussed
the economic ascendancy of women. I was just wondering if you did
any research into other outcomes such as happiness because I know
there was a key 2009 study, the paradox of declining
female happiness, which showed that women’s happiness
over 30 years has declined in absolute terms
and relative to men. And there’s also data coming out now that showing that women are suffering
more depression and anxiety compared to men. And it’s speculated
that this might have to do with more pressure on women to have perfect careers,
perfect marriages, be perfect mothers, to look good. Just wondering if you had
any thoughts on that? It’s 100% true. That’s why what I’m describing here
is not a feminist triumph. It’s just the way of the world. One of the downsides of this –
and I write about in the book – women are much less happy now
than they were in the ’70s for exactly the reasons that you say. Part of this is because
women don’t give up spheres when they gain spheres. So the more that women have… I talk to women who make millions
of dollars more than their husbands, and they still see the house
as their responsibility. Women don’t tend to relinquish things
as they add things. It just becomes
this impossible pressure, so you now have 17 different spheres
that you’re competing in. Think about what that’s like
if you had cornered a woman in 1972 and said, “Listen, in 2013, “you’re going to be able to have
whatever job you want, “medical school,
do whatever you want, “but you’re going to be less happy.” It wouldn’t have made
any sense to them. It’s just an unintended consequence
of the rise of women, is this growing unhappiness. JULIA: The interesting thing
about that data, which I actually looked really
closely at at one point, Hanna, is that there is one group
of women in the States which bucks that trend
and has had rising happiness which is African-American women. That’s an interesting phenomenon. The theories about… For example, someone has compared
equal income poor black women and poor white women, and poor white women are the
first women in American history to die younger than their mothers,
to have a shorter lifespan. And one theory about why that is,
is because black women have… The trends that I’m describing have been true in black America
since the ’70s. This is just a theory that black women own their power
in the matriarchy. They’re not uncomfortable about it
the way white women are. They’re past this transition,
and so it’s all a matter of identity. They have accepted… They’re struggling
in many, many ways, but they have accepted what their
life is and where meaning comes from, and so they’re much steadier than… I don’t know that this is true, but it struck me
as a really interesting guess as to why they would be the happiest. One economist said it was because
they were getting married less. Yes, that might be true. Anyway, I think we probably have time
for just quickly one more. Thanks. (YELLING) Sorry? Oh, up the top.
I’m so sorry! There’s been a whole…
I’m so sorry. Who’s been standing there for longer? WOMAN: Can I just ask a quick
question about ‘The End of Men’ when it comes to the statistics
on violence against women, the statistics of rape
and domestic violence? What do you think the impact
of this very exciting, to my mind, research of yours might have on that? Do you think there could even be
a backlash against women? Because that is one area in which
women are just not equal to men. There’s still that physical element. Three things to say. One, since you started with
the word “statistics”… Every time I say this
people get mad, but it’s just true. There is vastly less violence
against women. That has been dramatically declining
in the last 12 years, and the reason… I’m not saying it’s not there. It’s dramatically declined because women are not
financially dependent on men. So in the way that you used to be
stuck in a house or a bad marriage with a guy who’s beating up on you,
that situation is no longer true. That said, there’s also
a tremendous backlash. There’s a new book
which I just reviewed which is called ‘Angry White Men’, in which this guy, Michael Kimmel, who writes a lot about
male-female relations, catalogues the hatred
of a certain class of men, particularly post-divorce men. And this great
men’s rights movement – which I don’t know
if you have an equivalent here, there is in some parts of Europe –
against women, and it will just chill your spine to read some of the ways
that they blame their downfall. One of the chapters is called
‘The Black Woman Stole My Job’. The problem with that sentence is,
who said it was your job? Where does the “my” come from? But there is this tremendous way
in which people blame women for all of these larger… ..their own sense of hopelessness
and powerlessness. So that’s the backlash part. OK. I feel really bad about this. Just a really quick question
and we’ll do a quick answer. I’ll answer more shortly. Sorry. Yep. Up there. I worked for many years
in high-value computer sales. I spent a lot of my life negotiating. And my comment on your scripts would be that script number three
is a no-brainer for men and women. That is the way business
should be done, showing value and putting
yourself forward as a person who offers value whether or not
you’re asking for a raise. And you think for men and women both? I think for men and women both. I think that’s the way
people should communicate. And my question is are you optimistic
about the future, and if so, why? -(LAUGHS)
-(LAUGHTER) There’s two different ways
this could go, and one is terrible and one is good. The good way is what I described – opening of gender roles
like we see in these TV shows. And the bad way is that men, and men particularly of a certain
class, just drop out, literally. They’re not fathers,
they’re not finding jobs, they’re just
kind of a disappeared generation, which is what a lot of
our top economists worry as the biggest social problem
we will face in the next few years. It will be the problem of men
of a certain class dropping out and being angry. I’m so sorry. We don’t have time
for more questions. If you do,
go and get a book at the signing. Hanna’s about to sign books
in the Concert Hall South Foyer. You might be able to get in
a very quick question then. I’m sorry we ran out of time. (APPLAUSE) And just before you go,
just a couple more things. This evening,
Hanna is also on the panel, ‘The World Is Not Ready
For Women in Power’ with Anne Summers,
amongst other people. And you can see copies of this on the YouTube channel
for Festival of Dangerous Ideas. Thank you, Hanna Rosin.

82 Comments

  • theoneheretosty says:

    IMO women can not be both mothers and career women without one of them suffering.

  • Sarah Rambo says:

    I didn't know it but my husband and I have a see-saw marriage and we both share the load.  When we were first married though we just slid into stereotypical gender roles without even realizing it.

  • Joonas Helander says:

    57:20 the lady is totally wrong. The societies cover up all the physical and mental violence towards men from women. What I have heard its nearly equal. Most police officers laugh at men trying to report such issues.

  • Wolfwolveswolf says:

    Marriage is no longer worth it for Men. Why bother? Women base a Man on what he has for MONEY or how good of a bad-Boy entertainer he is (the intense excitement they get). Who a Man is means very little, if at all! It's all about what he is, and in relation to MONEY and his popularity and how much other women want and desire him! But when ever a women is done with her means to something (the Man) or wants a different means to something, she then moves on; or if the Husband can no longer offer whatever the means to something was, she moves on. Or if a Man comes along who has a better means to something, or he has more of a means to something than what the husband has for a means to something; and that this new Man is an easy, available, ticket to draw in. Yes he's a good option for the once upon a wife, along with all that new excitement that the new Man brings. Hell a lot of women these days, they get a divorce for nothing but what life is itself or some feeling they got that morning that tripped the trigger. But all Hell is about to brake loose, and as bad as it will be for both Men and women, Men will be glad that they are Men. For the easy life will be gone in a flash, savageness will have been awakened and all of the goodies that come with it. Fore you can NOT screw around with nature, or G-d (which ever fits your belief). Fore whenever such is done, there is always a grave price to be paid for it. Yes the rude awakening is on its way, due time.

  • Wilson23 says:

    Hanna Rosin is very confusing author and I suspect her thoughts confuse her as well. She is good at two things – generalizations and cutting corners for the sake of cheap laughs. Actually Andrea James-like studies didn't propose questions – who you want to work with and who is nice. Sociologists aren't idiots. Smart sociologist knows that core of good study is right nuanced question. Questions were who do you want to hire – young woman (who might get pregnant and have to take a leave), single woman with children or young or middle aged man with children. All have same qualifications. Male employers were inclined to pick male candidates. Such studies have nothing to do with ambitious women perceived as bitches. Here Rosin used this to cut corner to her crude generalization. Also there are no certain clear understanding of hook-up culture's outcomes (or even its existance). Some say hook-up culture is total made-up journalistic trend. Study of two 42year old women on campus is rather uncertain and proves nothing. Actually what did they discover exactly? That young women can sleep around without commitment? Well, that's not a new notion. And how exactly do sorority girls' claims prove so called "end of men"? Sorority is not an ultimate place for discovering "plight" of men. Better base your claim on interviewing as many groups of women as possible then you'd start to understand whole reality of things (at least partially).
    And to say that Katniss is male hero is a bit confusing and somewhat ludicrous. It is a hyperbolizing for the sake of proving a point. Firstly, male hero isn't ultimate rude guy who's not nice to anyone. Where did she get this notion? Hero was always nice guy who cares about people. And secondly, hunting and food searching wasn't only male thing in pre-historic times. She should know better. Women always gather berries and plants and hunt for small animals. And men's hunt for big mammoth was very seldom thing. If macho stereotypes about men character are ridiculed it doesn't mean that "end of men" is coming. To say otherwise is ridiculous.
    Also yeah women invaded many sectors of healthcare and education and social services but it only means that they invaded them coz they have limited choice of employment. And with social cuts and sequestration policies social sector gonna suffer among the first ones. And women may be graduate more than men but what's the point if they still have limited choice in workforce. Many of them can't find job.        

  • mrgees100peas says:

    My opinion before watching the video is that there is a faulty logic here. Its the same things as my last job. The company always foretold how they would be ahead of the competition by X time. It would had been true had the competition stayed stagnant. Same with men vs women. The men will not be obsolete because they'll change with the times. We are all humans not machines and unlike machines human are very good at adapting. Ofcourse I would have to watch the video to see what the fuss is really about.

  • markw999 says:

    The truth is men have bent  over backwards accomodating women and thier new roles over the last 40 years. YES we do dishes, babysit kids, change diapers, etc and STILL mow the lawn.  And we've promoted women at work to positions they are rarely qualified for. I've seen it 100 times. Feminists have to keep hammering the myth of the idle dominant male and the subservient female to keep the anger alive. Its not real. Women, for thier part, have reached 50%+ obesity rates and are angry and misandric as hell. Screw this nonsense.

  • Mose Stephenson says:

    "And the man and the woman like statues apart; stone-deaf to the long lost patois of the heart."   M. Stephenson

  • teerexness says:

    All of this success she attributes to the actions of women, is actually due to the effects of increasing socialism (collectivism). Take the forced government social engineering and extortion away and only the women who could compete and bring something desirable to the market would succeed. And millions of bullish*t jobs, mostly sitting at desks, would go up like smoke.

  • shatdog1 says:

    Egad.

  • taos treror says:

    Only one thing left to say, "If you having girl problems I feel bad for you son I got 99 problems……….."

  • Anthony Zarat says:

    The reason fathers have difficulty with the fatherhood role is discriminatory feminist legislation and man-hating feminist family courts that deny men any role in their children's lives post divorce … and every father knows this, even those who are still married.

  • Eizi Eizz says:

    Hanna Rosin, another opportunist misandrist chauvinist feminist.
    A truely poisonous woman.
    I wish there would be a hell for her to go to.

  • Jon Smith says:

    Feminist statistics/lies are created by and believed by mentally and emotionally unstable women. Intelligent women don't need feminists to tell them what to think, what to do, how to behave etc. 
    Feminists = manipulative liars, bullies and cowards.

  • Tengu Manz says:

    "It is a dangerous thing to create a society of angry men. Feminists have no idea what a can of worms they’ve created — and what it’s about to do to our nation." — Suzanne Venker

  • circa blonk says:

    36:47  "Yeah, I don't think this is the Lady Gaga concert, she hasn't come out yet".

  • Dave Talbot says:

    ugh shes married? i bet she emasculates him everyday…poor guy.

  • Borock Obomo says:

    A rootless, cosmopolitan, unscrupulous, cynical, pontificating, smug, self-satisfied, smirking, insolent, perpetual nomad; a compulsive liar and a two-faced hypocrite; driven by hatred and fear of Christians, fear and hatred of rural people,and fear and hatred of people who question her tribe's tragedies and aspirations.

    Hanna Rosin is a BITCH!

  • SaelPalani says:

    I love you Hanna! You should read all the comments here by the emasculated men who are blaming women for all their problems. It's hilarious!

  • SaelPalani says:

    I think men will drop out. These dudes are just angry and want to blame women. You can see them all over this comment section. For some reason Youtube seems to be the place where these lunatics hang out.

  • GunsGiftsGalleries says:

    i feel sorry for anyone that had to sit through this screeching

  • Brock Landers says:

    Feminism is disease.

  • rudigero says:

    A radical jewess! Who would have thunk!

  • Steve Whetstone says:

    32:20  she describes job conversation styles between men and women asking for a raise. . .
    Those were good answers for the women and good strategy for the framing of answers!  Men could probably do well by answering like the women.  As a guy (assuming that's the reason) I thought the wrong answers were reasonable until I heard the alternative answer she said works.  Once I heard her proposed answer, and the rhetorical strategy was explained, I recognized the proposed answer as good for me too. 

  • Typho0n says:

    5:50 its not that it sucks to be beaten by a girl, it just sucks to be beaten! 

  • Typho0n says:

    In the US, 60% of men are out earning their partners LOL

  • Jasper Thorne says:

    This "festival" is a joke. It's an exercise in naked leftist consensus.

    The ideas themselves are always are utterly pedestrian. 

  • Frank Sanders says:

    Ok I gave her 10 minutes I will never get back. Could she have any less charisma? Could she make her speech any more boring? Does she before it's over make a point of some kind?

  • L3ndzo83 says:

    i no longer trust you tube like-dislike ratio b4 i watch a video.. this was genuine eye opener and obviously the woman put a lot of work into those researches, why thumbing it down then..

  • jean manuel says:

    God is a Mâle

  • TheHedge says:

    @12:17(Clarification: College degrees are required to do almost anything desk related, not almost anything.)

  • Rick Wilcox says:

    As smart as Hanna Rosin is, why does she keep getting her facts mixed up?   Re: women who earn more than their husbands/partners, the 40% figure in this well-publicized Pew research study includes the 25% of households with children under 18 which are headed by single mothers, with only one wage earner.  When there are 2 wage earning parents in the household, the woman earns more about 15% of the time.  15 + 25 = 40. That is a lot different than "40% of women outearn their partners." So, why does she continue to overstate the case?–such as those made a few years ago about the "mancession" and how women were taking over the workforce. Maybe that will happen someday, but recent reports of the "death of men" have been greatly exaggerated.  She makes some valid points, but is loose with published facts, such as those shown at the Bureau of Labor Statistics on employment.  Is credibility important when there is an agenda to promote? 

  • william waddell says:

    I think it reason why they are dominating the work place has nothing to do with hustle and is a combination between all the direct and indirect help they get from daddy (the government) and the fact they have weak mind compared to male and therefore are easy to control so big businesses love them since they can afford the law suites

  • william waddell says:

    the great CEO debate you cannot raise a child go down that path (it takes time you don't have)

  • william waddell says:

    that third option like the guy said is the best for males as well for obvious reasona

  • Esko Elmwood says:

    What Mrs. Rosin says at 30:30 is perhaps the most important thing in this entire video.  Just looking at the comments you can see exactly what she is talking about.  At no point does she emasculate men, or say bad things about them.  She is talking about stats and trends in our current times, and that is extremely relevant to both men and women. 

    some of the disrespectful comments here show how afraid many men are about the societal changes that are occurring today.  I know this to be true because I see my friends acting in the same way.   Out of all of the men I currently know the only one that is the primary earner is my stepfather.  that is including brothers and male friends and myself.

    I am a medically retired soldier.  I have two degrees.  I've worked at the pentagon.  I've worked for THE highest ranking officers in the Airforce.  I have professional certificates to back up my degree's and I still can't even get an interview.  So… I stay home with the kids and my wife works 50-60 hours a week, and she works hard.  I am proud of her ability to be such an awesome mother while at the same time working her fingers to the bone.  I see this very dynamic all over the place, which is only backed up by the statistics Mrs. Rosin has shown us. 

    Don't shoot the messenger. 

  • Patrick Pepin says:

    why is this bitch getting all this attention she is so hatefull towards men. thats why i have gone mgtow.

  • magicpony9 says:

    my fellow youtube commenters: you can disagree with someone's ideas without hating them personally or fearing them. I think some of these findings might be based on dodgy anecdotal research (I haven't read the book) but you know what? I found none of it "screechy" or "misandrist" or even all that "angry." Smug? OK, well you got me there, she is smug. But that doesn't negate her message. Cut it with the ad hominem (or should I say ad feminam?) attacks and play the ball, not the woman.

  • Shaun MacMillan says:

    I really don't think so this is just the beginning of the end of feminism!

  • JohnQRandom says:

    I thought this was going to be more like Christina Hoff Sommers or Camille Paglia.  I even clicked on favorite and then it ended.  What the fuck did I just watch other than the same shit they babble on about at the American university?  "Yep, we're roll reversing guys, get used to it."

  • alnot01 says:

    Let's cut to the chase. Pussy is powerful, despite appearances. Penis is not powerful, despite appearances.

    Women will soon make up 60% of university graduates. Most of the homeless are men. In my country, men make up 80% of suicides and 96% of those doing hard times for nondrug offences. The seeming superiority of men was an artifact of a zero understanding of female biology, and the industrial revolution. Society as a men's club is indeed fading, but feminists do not let on that that is the case.

  • alnot01 says:

    "I think men will drop out."
    ME. They have been for decades. It's called drugs, suicide, crime, and declining formal educations.

    "These dudes are just angry and want to blame women."
    ME. They are angry for valid reasons, and justifiably detest the female triumphalism and pity party that is radfem.

    "You can see them all over this comment section."
    ME. Social media comment threads are the vox populae of our era.

    "For some reason Youtube seems to be the place where these lunatics hang out."
    ME. Your use of the word 'lunatics' shows that your mind is closed to the fact that most men have no power, and are sliding into a sort of proletariat.

  • Guy Fox says:

    oh, she loves men. Thank you for letting us live on this planet.

  • AlternatingFrogs says:

    After 6 minutes of her torturous, soulless words and grating, charmless voice I'd rather eat bricks than listen to this/her any longer. She's almost enough to turn me gay. She's like a cyborg. And what she is saying makes me want to puke.

  • odabuu says:

    That was absolutely horrible, she spent more time talking about women then men

  • KandaPanda says:

    @8:11…. well, that's bullshit. i am a stay at home dad and lived in portland. the culture there is not inviting for stay at home dads. maybe the women are cool with it but other men are not. it's kind of like that everywhere though, i've found. portland is about as main stream as a place can get. if you think Portlandia is accurate, well… i would be concerned about your analytic skills. haha  

  • OldUncleRabbit says:

    I'm like a femenist in every way except that I prefer the term Humanism. But I resent the antagonism behind the proposal. It is not productive, and it takes enthusiasm out of reasonable people.

  • Luke M says:

    I can't imagine what the response would have been in the early 1970s if someone – even the President came out and said, "This marks the end of women everywhere. Let's celebrate." You know why I can't imagine it?? Because it's FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE, because despite what feminists tell you, men don't hate women nearly as much as women hate men. Why else would we slave away to create civilization, to pull you out of that rock cave and make you executives of your own companies??

  • Giovanni Guzzi says:

    Men are obsolete!? OK!!! I'll just go die!

  • Giovanni Guzzi says:

    I think that the overall progress of women in the past 10-15 years has been excellent… It shows that no matter what you can be what you wish to be be! If a women wishes to be a housewife with a working husband then they can be, if they want to serve in the military then they can! Now of course there will always be setbacks like Michael Bay or a fair amount of action movies out there where they portray them as sex idols and that's it… I will say that even though there are setbacks there are HUGE steps forward! The past year has shown off some great examples of brave and independent charismatic women, who are also beautiful as well! Arya Stark (GoT), Elizabeth (Bioshock), Lara Croft (Tomb Raider), Ellie (TLOU), Sansa (GoT), Hannah (BF4!) these are all great examples and their are many more!

  • John Steele says:

    Miss SaelPalani (who has disabled replies, by the way), your hateful and exploitative ideology is being called out for what it is, so in true stereotypical Jewish form you draw out the claws and commence socially ridiculing attacks on your opponents with sarcastic "LOL"s and calling us "lunatics". It's a safe bet that you've never laid back and surrendered your body to one of the sycophantic, pencilnecked metrosexual men feminism idealizes and creates. We men who embrace and not criminalize masculinity will be the ones to bring an end to this unsavory and intolerable hate movement known as feminism.

  • Paperinjerate says:

    She's so BOSSY

  • sodazman says:

    The simple issue is that women are becoming more like men. Men are becoming more like women.

  • Tim Buckley says:

    35:16 Bad example. Whenever anyone is negotiating, they need to explain what they will offer in exchange for what they are receiving.

  • SwordofDamoclese1 says:

    Women like these only flourish in countries that have the ability to steal from future generations by borrowing money to support unsustainable lifestyles.  In countries that can't borrow and have to live off what they can produce, women do very badly.  That in a nutshell is all you really need to know about women.

  • SwordofDamoclese1 says:

    Women don't have "incomes", they are the end-recipients of a grand social welfare system that takes money borrowed from other countries and funnels it to them.

  • SwordofDamoclese1 says:

    Rhetorical question of the day:  if women earn 70% of what men earn for the same work, why don't employers hire only women, slash their labor costs, and drive their competition out of business?

  • SwordofDamoclese1 says:

    Gents watching this… your tax dollars and debt that accrues to your kids are making this little hen-house talk possible.

  • prschuster says:

    I must have missed something because I didn't get any great insights about why women are outperforming men or why men are falling behind. Plastic women and cardboard men doesn't cut it for me as an explanation for anything. Then she spouted out a bunch of predictable truisms about how we shouldn't be tied to gender stereotypes, as if that were some deep insight. It was all about the stats with little in the way of analysis.

  • PlasmaMongoose says:

    Since men are apparently obsolete now, they might as well just go their own way.

  • Captain Ban says:

    we all obsolete. end of story
     

  • LockHaven says:

    This size queen might think that it is the end of men, but she is on a well known dating site for well endowed men looking for guys that are 8"x6".  Ironic, but hot too!

  • Mike Mohn says:

    It's like an incitement for war.  If men have to fight for survival.  It's not an issue of equality anymore it's about domination, who has the right to dominate society. 

  • Mike Mohn says:

    Men are allowed to be aggressive, just as women are.

  • Mike Mohn says:

    If one really thinks this entire lecture is stupid.

  • Mike Mohn says:

    She likes to talk, but a lot of senseless reasoning.

  • MrJiffyjiffy123 says:

    You idiot your thinking will destroy western society …because nobody on earth can replace men
    ..no one

  • Will Ganness says:

    This woman is deluded and is getting the support of women who because they tend to be narcissists, love the idea that they are superior, and men because they love to worship vagina its biology in a nutshell. These 'alpha wife' examples that she 'studied'  of women who have excelled in the work place are often baloney. Most men i know tolerate these bossy women who pretend to be competent but get ahead for other reasons. They get others to help them, women lead men on to do their work, and the education system and corporations pander to these women because feminism bully's these institutions so that women can pretend to be superior. Why is it that after 60 years of the liberated women there is virtually nothing to show for it? Take two prominent women in tech – Sheryl Sandberg and Marissa Mayer – the former boasts that she is incompetent in tech and yet focuses on everything but tech while Marissa Mayer dated one of the founders at Google and subsequently had a bright future. I dare you to find male equivalents of these women in tech. Look around you Hanna, women are barren. 99% of all of the things that make you liberation possible are created and invented by men, men alone. Sure you can harp about inventing Kevlar, or the vacuum or Madame Curie, but it always has been men and it will continue to be men that drive civilization and culture. There are no female equivalents of Beethoven, Shakespeare, Van Gogh, DaVinci, Einstein, Bill Gates, even the greatest chefs – virtually every single profession is ruled by men. I dare say that fathers have greater influence on children outcomes, and it is because we told women to go out and work and then gave them financial incentive to kick out men for their own benefit, parenthood and motherhood have failed and is responsible for breeding the worse criminals we have seen. You live you life in an air condition office writing your hate crap while you enjoy the safety, security provided by men you have never met. DO you think that getting your latte or food at your supermarket or restaurant can exist if there were no men? How long do you think the world will last without men? You and your incompetent female compatriots will spend 3 years fixing what men keep working if men walked off the job for 3 days. In fact ALL FEMALE RUN institutions and organizations dont exist in real life. Here is one woman's story who tried, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1168182/Catfights-handbags-tears-toilets-When-producer-launched-women-TV-company-thought-shed-kissed-goodbye-conflict-.html . In case you dont know men can run things very successfully without women for years at a time, how do you think Air Craft carrier groups operate out at sea, or the Romans conquered the world. Enjoy your false sense of security while it lasts. Long after we pack up Feminism as an utter failure, men will continue to produce, develop, engineer the world or where ever we live to make it safer and better for all.

  • Will Ganness says:

    I bet her husband is watching all the porn while she is in Australia. Hell i'd be watching porn while she slept.

  • WildBot34 says:

    Amazing talk and great insight. Definitely came in with preconceived notions because of the title but her observations are spot on.

  • merik slingerland says:

    "For every 3 college degrees women get , men get 2"
    Good job women. You can now work at Starbucks with your Bachelors in Gender studies and $ 150k debt.
    I like the comparison with apple computers though. Looks fancy, is very expensive and is extremely limited.
    Sorry my comment may sound very macho but this talk pissed me off… "The end of Men" LOL

  • DAG0R0 says:

    If all men decided to stay home for a week the world would collapse. We invented, built and maintain all basic services that keep human society going at the expense of health and family, yet these bitches have the gall to say this kind of shit. 

  • Gur says:

    Very insightful talk.

  • Aeimos says:

    There's really nothing threatening about Hanna Rosin's book. Read it, men. It's a guide book on how to adapt to a different world. She makes the great point in her book, men are rigid, like cardboard cutouts. I hate to say it, but she's right. Learn to be more dynamic and go with the flow instead of hoping it all comes crashing down in the end to the favor of old and outmoded male gender roles.

  • Mgtowpia says:

    Single mothers the sole provider??? No, the state is the provider. Women are delusional and believe they don't need men. I say give them what they want, go Mgtow, live for yourself, do what you want, when you want, and enjoy a great stress free life.

  • Black Adam says:

    Women are the apple computers of humanity? hmm

  • k24bfan says:

    She's right about the education gap that's growing between females, and males. Also she's right about the attitudes of women changing towards work, relationships, and child bearings. What "intellectuals" like her are misunderstanding is that this is actually fundamentally good or "progressive". I see this as only creating more tensions between the sexes which moving forward is not ideal.

  • Damian Sellus says:

    13:30 She's saying that young boys have a feeling that school is rigged against them. Are these boys pre-teens? I get the impression they are. And they had "the assumption they would take over the world anyway"? Or society did? People, look a the the percent of boys on riddlin. Put your sons AND daughters in private schools. "The age of the rise of women". If anyone can't see how this is farcical, you probably deserve what you get. You know, decline?

  • Pushback says:

    Here is a thought provoking question: Are black people obsolete?

  • benji07 says:

    It's ironic that Feminists will talk about "male privilege" whenever it's convenient for their argument, but then those same Feminists will sit on a panel and tell you why men are obsolete and declare unilaterally, "The end of men!"

    What is it? Are men privileged or obsolete? You can't have it both ways.

  • perkyporkpie says:

    It's extraordinary reading some of comments that any man who disagrees with any premise put forward is dismissed as a hater and an idiot. The need to destroy men and anything to do with masculinity seems overpowering. Most men will pull away within the next few years-once you transcend sexual desire life becomes much easier

  • Jack says:

    this presentation is like a kick in the nuts if you are a guy. we're (men) are becoming obsolete. the future is female.

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